So I've been jossed

[indri]

and over some pathetic small detail that nevertheless completely destroys my almost-finished fic. I spent some time thinking about possible re-writes this morning, but they would all involve me starting almost from scratch, beginning with my background research. Any half-hearted edit would lose the pacing and tension of the current version.

Besides, the point on which I've been jossed seems quite unbelievable to me. Why, during ten decades of powered flight, would Spike never have been on an aeroplane? I can understand Angel not having flown before, as he occasionally suffers from a mild form of technophobia and he was just a little preoccupied for most of the twentieth century, but Spike? He likes his modern conveniences and he's always out for a thrill. He has great physical courage, no known fear of heights (please don't tell me that's why he fell from the tower), nor any other reason why he wouldn't get on a plane.

Oh, I understand why an intercontinental flight might pose a vampire a bit of a problem, even to one willing to hide under blankets and snarl at anyone pulling up a blind, but can anyone not imagine 1930s Spike, with goggles on and a little leather Biggles hat, scamming his way into a night flight and a near-death experience or two? Like fast cars -- but in the air!

So I think Spike was lying. Of course he's been on a plane, just as he's been on a submarine and a zeppelin and a motorcycle. He was just saying that so be kind to Angel.

[And for my next rant: Spike and languages. An explanation as to why he can speak Fyarl but doesn't know Latin, German or Chinese, despite a nineteenth century education and a century of travel.]

Comments

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

He should know Latin, given his classical education. But Brits are notorious for not speaking much else other than the Q.E. German? No way. Chinese? A big stretch. I could see him knowing some romance languages though. Then again, we have to remember this is Spike. Can you see him studying ANYTHING? If he needed to know a language - Fyaral say, to control minions, or get better access to virgins or something, yea. Otherwise? Why bother? Why converse with food?

And I can see him not going on planes because Dru would have been petrified of them. Good fanwank anyway. Although it doesn't explain how the FUCK he got to and from Africa in less than two months.

[indri]

Can you see him studying ANYTHING?

Yeah, but only if he sees that he can get something out of it, as you say. If he'd thought that learning Serbo-Croat would have won him Buffy's love, he would have been fluent in no time :)

Why converse with food?

Dunno, but he always does seem a little chatty even with Happy Meals. Of course, we've only ever seen him taunt in English. It may be more about him liking the sound of his own voice than a desire to talk to his food.

And I can see him not going on planes because Dru would have been petrified of them.

That was the only explanation I could come up with too.

Although it doesn't explain how the FUCK he got to and from Africa in less than two months.

Did DeLorean ever make motorcycles? Because I think he'd need a time machine.

wiseacress's theory is that he actually went to Burbank. That's looking likelier every minute.

[abbylee]

If you don't publish this fic because of this detail, I'm going to kill you.

Clear? Good :D

[indri]

Right then, I've been warned.

Also, binsoup is holding her breath. I'd better hurry up before she asphyxiates.

[binsoup.livejournal.com]

I passed out from lack of oxygen. :)
No, actually I had a long nap this afternoon.

I'm with you on the Spike air travel and language issue. The guy is just too 20th century and fun-seeking to have passed on the aeroplanes. He speaks classical Greek (or reads it at least) as shown in Touched, so he should speak Latin, too.

Don't change your story. It's you Spike, afterall.

[indri]

No, actually I had a long nap this afternoon.

I had a long nap this morning, no doubt because I didn't get to bed until 4:30am.

The guy is just too 20th century and fun-seeking to have passed on the aeroplanes.

Exactly.

[irfikos.livejournal.com]

wank #1: he knows french and spanish. cuz he spent time in france and spain and the languages are similar and relatively easy to learn. i don't think there's canonical evidence of him ever spending time in germany, so why bother. and chinese is a very difficult language for an english-speaker to learn. spike didn't have the patience. plus, they were only there for a short time and he was mostly in it for the carnage and the dru-sex.

demon languages are far more practical if you view humans as chattel, for the most part. he had to learn fyarl if he wanted to hire them as minions at any given point in time.

wank #2: intercontinental issues aside... some vamps are kinda claustrophobic. some vamps like spike, who vividly remembers digging himself out of his coffin. hence his tendency to sleep on TOP of the bier and later in an actual bed, even though he went with the conventional crypt. also hence the big, roomy car. airplanes have been know to trigger attacks of claustrophobia. the whole submarine thing was against his will and he channelled his nervousness into annoying angel.

also? no escape. it's tactically unwise to be on an airplane. leaves him too defenseless. nowhere to go but down.

***
as for being jossed, who cares? write it your way anyway. it's fanfic, baby! it's already not canon. hell, the tie-in books aren't canon and they've been jossed like crazy. it ain't no thang.

[indri]

Mostly I'm being grumpy about the languages. I was just surprised that Spike knew less German than I did (and I don't know much). And I seem to know a remarkable number of native English speakers who do speak Chinese.

it's tactically unwise to be on an airplane

Yeah, but it seems to me to be on par with driving drunk in daylight or taking morning jogs under a blanket.

as for being jossed, who cares?

I know, it's just that a big part of what I enjoy about writing fanfic is interpolating between known facts. I was really hoping to stay within canon with this fic.

[irfikos.livejournal.com]

okay....

re-wank: spike really *does* know german, he was just playing dumb to throw off the others. umm... that works... right? and as for chinese, they'd only just arrived in china for the first time so he hadn't had a chance to learn it yet and then afterward, he avoided learning on general principle (cuz maybe, deep down, he was afraid to know what the chinese slayer had said to him) or it created a mental block. or he was bluffing about not knowing it later in l.a.

um... yeah. that's it!

Yeah, but it seems to me to be on par with driving drunk in daylight or taking morning jogs under a blanket.

shush now. don't nitpick! :-)

i know what you mean. i tried to stick really close to canon on my first fic but i ended up having a heck of a time writing the ending cuz i had to give spike a soul for it to work and still be canon. i still feel as though i handled it rather sloppily. but i also still feel that my way of giving him a soul was a hell of a lot better than they did it in canon.

so what can ya do? ::shrug::

[indri]

Hee. No, I have no real belief that Spike ought to speak Chinese. I have many Chinese-speaking friends (both native speakers and non-native speakers) and all I can say in Mandarin is "I don't know" and "How are you doing, First Emperor of China?". I was just surprised by his complete lack of German.

i tried to stick really close to canon on my first fic

For some reason I thought "Chain" was your first fic. I may have to look for your others then.

[irfikos.livejournal.com]

spike knows all the good german curse words, obviously.

i mean... that's the first think i like to learn in any language. i know how to curse in several languages and to say "i love you" in several languages. cuz it doesn't hurt to be prepared.

i know absolutely nothing in chinese. but then, i've never met anyone from china, either. i think it would be interesting to learn, though.

"chain" actually was my first fic. that's the one i was referring to, in fact. the latter sections of part 4? very sloppy. ugh. i love section 4.1 though. ::shrugh:: go fig.

[indri]

"chain" actually was my first fic. that's the one i was referring to, in fact.

Argh. See, I couldn't remember anything about Spike's soul in that. My cursed memory. Or maybe I got confused. I will have to go back and look.

[abbylee]

Well, I'd guess that your remarkable number of English speaker who do speak Chinese is just that... remarkable ;)

I listened to the show again to be able to figure out how much German Spike really doesn't know. First, I just watched that one scene, and thought that of course he should have known more than his 'vampire' guess. But, then I rewound to the part where he told us he was nabbed in Madrid; so its not like he was around Germans to have picked up the language.

The driving drunk in daylight is supposed to be unwise: he's drunk. As far as the morning jogs, I think we're supposed to assume that he's mostly running from the closest sewer, which considerably reduces the distance and the risk. I wouldn't be surprised by the idea of him flying on an airplane, but I wouldn't assume it.

[indri]

Well, I'd guess that your remarkable number of English speaker who do speak Chinese is just that... remarkable ;)

Oh, entirely. One of them is one of my brothers, which rather skews my perception of things :)

he told us he was nabbed in Madrid; so its not like he was around Germans to have picked up the language

Good point. Maybe Dru loathes the sound of German so they've never been to any German-speaking countries except very briefly.

My point about the drunk driving is just that he has no qualms about behaviour that others might see as foolhardy.

I wouldn't be surprised by the idea of him flying on an airplane, but I wouldn't assume it.

Whereas I did. Really, I'd have much less trouble fanwanking this if it didn't contradict my fic.

Please don't mind my grumbling.

[azdak.livejournal.com]

Maybe Dru loathes the sound of German so they've never been to any German-speaking countries except very briefly.

Didn't Roger Wyndham-Price say they'd last met when Spike was attacking an orphanage in Vienna? I agree with Kita, though, that Spike would hardly need to be able to speak the language in order to eat the orphans. Incidentally, 19th century English speakers thought German was very beautiful, just not very manly (the language was ideal for talking about music, fairy tales and 'love in all its forms' according to Mark Twain, but useless for anything martial) so William probably would have found it delightful. The modern perception of German as an ugly language is a post-WWI development.

[indri]

? I agree with Kita, though, that Spike would hardly need to be able to speak the language in order to eat the orphans.

I think I've been presuming that Spike has some capability with languages because of the fact that he'd picked up Fyarl, a language he clearly did not learn at school. I'm just having to revise my perception of him.

19th century English speakers thought German was very beautiful, just not very manly

Very interesting; I did not know that. It is remarkable how fluid these sorts of perceptions are.

[onetwomany.livejournal.com]

Aww, canon, shamanon. Just ignore it and publish as is, or use a small disclaimer if it really bothers you. Sides, this is ME, they overlook little details like that so no one is gonna hold it against you.

Can't wait to read the fic!

[indri]

I know, I just...

*sigh*

I'll hold it against me, unfortunately.

[rahirah]

I've always figured Spike does know Latin--he's just rusty because he doesn't use it regularly. I took Latin in college, and now I can barely remember "Homo agricola est," and that was only twenty years ago. But Spike was familiar enough with the language to know Dalton was cocking up his translation, and he recognised the inscription in the monastary right off (which I'm told was a mix or lain and Greek).

I can buy that he doesn't know Chinese. It's a difficult language and we don't know how long Darla et al were there. But he ought to speak at least a few words of German (and Italian, and French, as should all the Fanged Four.)

Me, I'd fanwank the airplane thing and go right ahead...

[indri]

I can understand that Spike's Latin is rusty and I'd forgotten about the inscription in the church, so thanks for reminding me. That makes me feel oddly better.

e, I'd fanwank the airplane thing and go right ahead...

Yup, that's what I'm going to do all right.

[nwhepcat.livejournal.com]

I vote for wankage. And hey, I watched the ep and didn't think "Well, that fucks up Indri's whole story!"

Spike=notorious liar. (Or insert other wankage here.)

[indri]

Thanks. Yes, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Spike's lying :)

[missmurchison.livejournal.com]

Canon? Who cares about canon? It's your fic. Write it!

[caille.livejournal.com]

Well, as a reader, I would not be bothered by the airplane detail, so I agree with everyone that you should stay the course with your fic.

Honestly, I think Spike would have avoided regular commercial airplanes simply because it requires him to be so passive. On a ship, he can sneak aboard, which is always fun, then he can skulk and lurk all over the place.

I agree with you: I can see him up in a private plane - flown either by his soon-to-be-dinner, or by a sidekick vamp, and I can see Spike taking the controls and having a hell of a good time flying that plane and almost crashing. He'd have loved it.

I'll bet the trip to England probably is the first time he's "traveled by aeroplane" - i.e., obtained a ticket and boarding pass, made his way to an assigned seat, put on the seat-belt as requested, returned his tray to its upright position....all the boring, non-clandestine traveling routines.

Remember when Kendra first came to Sunnydale? She was a stowaway. Spike probably got to Africa hidden away on some cargo flight; maybe he never even looked out a window.

So IMO, this jossification episode is not to be worried about. We dealt with Spike saying, "You were my sire!" We can deal with anything.

(As for German, yeah, he should know it. But as William, he might have found it too unpleasant sounding, because William was all about putting his energies into creating things of beauty. As strong and expressive a language German is, I'll bet William still would have avoided it in favor of French and Italian.)

[indri]

Spike probably got to Africa hidden away on some cargo flight; maybe he never even looked out a window.

I can see that as a possibility.

We dealt with Spike saying, "You were my sire!" We can deal with anything.

True, all too true.